Narrator:
Welcome to Digital First Leadership, the podcast that focuses on helping leaders and teams understand how to master the language of social media in today's digital first world. In this episode, Richard sat down with Howard Tiersky, the CEO and founder of From, a digital transformation agency that helps companies deliver digitally powered customer experiences. Howard is also recognized as a top digital transformation influencer. During the conversation, Richard and Howard talk about companies and brands generating strong emotional relationships with our customers and how love and business co-exist.
Richard:
Howard, thank you very much for joining me. I certainly appreciate you taking the time to kind of sit down and have a chat.
Howard:
Oh, thrilled to be here.
Richard:
It's interesting because as a bestselling Wall Street journal author, you have had a book, Winning Digital Customers, come out. And in this book, if I have a copy of it, as I've read through it, you've approached this concept of winning digital customers from a bit of a unique angle. And I'd kind of like to talk to you about it, but the keyword here is love, which I found I have to admit, I found it very surprising to find that in a business book around digital transformation, this concept of love. Let's talk about that.
Howard:
Sure. Well, I think it starts from a business perspective. One thing I always like to do is say, well, you want to be successful, let's look at who's successful. Who's winning in our digital economy today? And what is it that they seem to be doing? Because there's no question that the transformation that's occurred over the last decade or more has created real winners and losers. We've seen all kinds of companies go out of business and we've seen the largest companies that have ever been existing on this planet have grown to that scale on the backs of being successful in the digital economy. And when I look across those brands, there's obviously a variety of things you could look at as common practices. And we're always trying to learn that and a lot of what I put in my book is my learnings from studying successful companies and trying to bring that together into an approach to helping anybody drive their own success in this world.
Howard:
But I think one of the most unifying themes is that the companies that are doing the best today are successful at generating strong emotional relationships. And I would go so far as to say the love of their customers, whether that's in apple or Instagram or Snapchat or Disney, it's not all about being a digital company. Nike, Chick-fil-A.
Richard:
Tesla.
Howard:
Absolutely, absolutely.
Richard:
Right.
Howard:
Absolutely. And so part of what I've been looking to do, and part of what we do in the book is we try to reverse engineer that. First of all, we've done all kinds of studies that correlate these kinds of customer relationships to financial performance. Who are the companies that have the greatest revenue growth? Who are the companies that are driving the most profitability? Who are the companies that have the greatest share price or share multiples?
Howard:
And of course, no rule is perfect and applies to every single in the same way, but what we see as a pattern, is that the companies that have been successful at fostering this idea that I call customer love are very often the ones that are most successful. And sometimes people are like, love? Really love? Why would you say love? And I understand that initial reaction. I mean, look, we use the word love in a lot of different ways in our English language. I mean, I love my wife and I love my Ford Mustang but not at exactly the same way. And similarly the love we feel from our customers is not necessarily the same as we love we feel from our families, but it is that idea of that strong, passionate connection.
Howard:
And so I don't think it goes too far to say, and there's plenty of people who will say that they love Starbucks, that they love Amazon. When we do customer research, which we do a ton of customer research. Every week we're doing different kinds of studies for clients, we hear those words all the time about certain brands. We don't hear it about Citibank. We don't hear it about Allstate. We don't hear it about Cigna. We don't hear it about Macy's honestly, but we hear it about Disney and Starbucks and we do studies to look at well, what is it that causes those brands to be loved and to have customers say that they love them? And we have sort of, I hate to say it this way because it sounds so unromantic, but we've really reverse engineered what is it that causes love? What is it that inspires a customer to have that feeling of love towards a brand? And we sort of boiled it down to three key things. And that's a lot of what we talk about in the book.
Richard:
So when you talk about those three key things, as we move forward here, because it's winning digital customers, and we're going to get into those three, but has it gotten easier or harder to cultivate that love from your customers with the whole moving to the digital space this past year of all of us basically transferring our physical lives into the digital world, are those companies who are embracing this digital transformation, are they finding it much easier? And is that why we're seeing this acceleration of these brands as they seem to be on a whole nother level. Right?
Howard:
Yes.
Richard:
And even just 18 months ago, we didn't seem to see this kind of acceleration.
Howard:
Yeah. I think a couple of things. First of all, none of it's easy. I would hesitate to say any of it's easy. It's all a ton of work. I would say that one of the things that is easier in the digital world is to create an experience that scales because you can create something that people love. And then all of a sudden you can be global, all of a sudden you can be touching millions or even billions of people. And the more digital versus physical product your brand is, the easier and faster, you can scale generally speaking.
Howard:
So there's no question that that's in a sense easier. On the other hand, because the speed of change we've seen in the world, the speed of change in customer needs and expectations, the speed of change in what you need to do in order to be loved by your customers has been so great. When you start out as an existing legacy brand. And we have so many great brands who've been around for decades and some of them centuries, and they need to change and transform so rapidly in order to be as relevant and loved as possible in this current day and age. That is actually quite difficult. Sometimes it seems easier to build something new than to take something and actually transform it. And that's one of the great challenges that so many of our brands face today.
Richard:
You bring up an interesting point and it was a conversation I had just this week and that is the company, and I've heard this, the company that should have dominated the internet is the company who invented shop from home. And that is Sears with their catalog, right? They owned the concept of taking the product, the storefront into people's homes and allowing that individual experience. And yet when it came to the internet, they completely missed right to the point where some of our audience might not even have ever stepped into Sears in their life. And yet we see that when you talk about that had been around for a hundred years, there's a perfect example of doing great, understanding it all, and then suddenly falling off a cliff.
Howard:
Yes.
Richard:
What would be-
Howard:
Why didn't-
Richard:
Sorry, go ahead. No, no, go ahead.
Howard:
I think to the same point, why didn't MTV become iTunes? Why didn't Blockbuster become Netflix? You see so many examples. Why didn't Kodak become dominant in digital photography? Why did they see that to companies like Apple or whatnot? Absolutely. You see that pattern play out over and over.
Richard:
And we have so many things to talk about here. But one question that I have is what companies are threatened right now by becoming irrelevant, which ones are who are thinking they're doing okay, but look, there might be some danger signs on the horizon. Got any insights into those?
Howard:
Well, in a sense, it's everybody. But I certainly think that retail is more threatened than some other brands. For example, it's a lot harder to establish a digital bank and compete with Citibank than it is to establish a digital apparel store online and compete with Macy's. Partly in some cases for federal regulatory reasons and sometimes it's just the complexity that it takes. But I think media companies and basic e-commerce companies, basic retailers that are not selling proprietary product. Anybody who kind of is a middleman. I think that we saw in the earliest days, the first party that was really disintermediated by the internet was the travel agent. Now it used to be, you had to go to the travel agent's office. I remember being in college and going to Liberty Travel and getting my printed tickets to fly home Chicago for Thanksgiving.
Howard:
And this was already decades ago. It became quickly clear that we don't need that party in the middle anymore. And I think anybody who is selling non-proprietary product, the risk is, well, someone else is going to be out there potentially either offering it less expensively or more conveniently, or with a better browser experience. And so many large brands, let's take someone like Macy's, which is a client of ours, has been in the past, they're a neighbor of ours where our main headquarters are not too far from Herald Square in New York City. A company that I think is a wonderful brand, wonderful company. But they face a lot of challenges in this world where there are so many places you can go and buy apparel. So strategically one of the things you see them do is trying to move towards more proprietary product, because that's more defensible again in a world where otherwise you can buy the same product anywhere, things like that.
Howard:
But I think those are some of the industries that face the greatest threat. But honestly, I think every industry does because the way I look at the topic of digital transformation in general, I often offer this definition, as I say, well, there's a digital transformation that's going on in the world, forget your company. It's going out in the world and it's going on in your customer and in your employee and in your shareholder, we're all going through this digital transformation of the world. And it's causing us as individuals to live a lifestyle by and large, which has digital at the center more and more and more.
Howard:
And the pace that we're moving towards that is just continued to increase. And of course COVID has increased it further. And so then when we talk about the digital transformation of a company, it's a lot about just transforming and changing fast enough to keep up with the pace of change in the world. And I think that any brand that isn't able to move quickly, it's a little bit less about industry, and it's a little bit more about culture. Are you able to change quickly enough because the world is changing so fast that if you're still doing business, largely the way that you've been doing it for the last couple of decades, that's means that you're probably highly threatened.
Richard:
And here in Silicon Valley where I live, you're in New York, some of my clients are selling off their Silicon Valley campuses. They have realized that they can completely go remote. Well, not completely, but close enough that thousands of people who used to come into an office every day are now being sent home and they're just selling the real estate. Who's buying it is I'm interested in who's buying it, but you're right. These companies that are rapidly adjusting and transforming themselves are the ones that are taking advantage of it. If we come back to your book, one thing that's the challenge, this is what I asked at the very beginning. Is it easier or is it harder because you referred to something as the love dilemma and we talked about this word love, you mentioned there are three key things that set that apart. What are those three things?
Howard:
Sure. So the recipe, so to speak, for achieving inspiring customer love has three levels and they're fairly straightforward. It's not always easy to achieve these three things, but to understand what they are is conceptually very straightforward. The first level, and we think of it like a pyramid, the base of the pyramid being to consistently meet your customer's needs. Just make sure that whatever domain of value you're offering, obviously those needs are going to be different if you're a florist versus if you're a podiatrist, but to consistently meet their needs. If you're not doing that, the odds are very slim that you're going to achieve customer love, but it is certainly not sufficient. There are many brands that consistently meet my needs. I take them for granted, and I do not love that. And if someone else could consistently meet my needs in the same way, but for a cheaper price or in some other way better, I'd switch.
Howard:
So it's not sufficient, but it's absolutely required. The second is to periodically or occasionally create delight in the customer, to exceed their needs, to exceed their expectations, to do something extra for them. That moves you more towards something that inspires love, not necessarily all the way, and I'll explain in a moment why these things create such an emotional connection, because I think we've successfully also reverse engineered that. And then the top level is to stand for something that the customer values, to align with the customer's values in a way that transcends simply the domain of commerce that you're providing. You're not just selling shoes, you are helping save children in Africa. But it doesn't have to be a political thing. Look at somebody like Apple, they stand for something, but it's not a social or it's not a political thing.
Howard:
It's more about human empowerment, giving tools to empower the creative individuals to change the world. So those are the three things. And I would encourage everyone who's listening to test that for yourself. And we have actually another little test that I can share if you like, of how to know which are the brands that you really love, or how to test how well your brand is loved.
Richard:
Oh, I think the audience would be very interested in that.
Howard:
Okay. I'll be happy to share that. But I think one of the reasons why these three things together inspire so much love is because of the emotional meaning that we give to these three things. And here's what I believe and what our research suggests the meaning is, when a brand consistently meets your needs, that bottom level of the pyramid, what does that mean?
Howard:
Because love and emotion is a lot about meaning. It means they understand me because someone can't meet my needs, unless they understand me. They know what I'm about. They know what I care about. They get me. And that's how they're able to make sure that they're there when I need them. They are anticipating what I need. And that's an important part. Do we ever love somebody that we feel doesn't really at some level kind of get us?
Howard:
I mean, just think about human relationships. It's a very important component, again, not sufficient, but very important. Then that second level, delight. That creates a different emotional meaning, which is they care about me because they're doing extra stuff that they don't have to do. And I mean how often do we get a bill or something from a company? And it says in the bottom, thank you for your business. We appreciate you as a customer and they've printed that right on the bill. So how seriously am I going to take that? Right? I mean, we see these things all the time and we ignore them because we don't believe them.
Richard:
And I want to use that as an example. For the first time in a year, I bought an airline ticket and flew somewhere for the first time in a year. And I purposely picked Delta. One is because they promise that there's nobody going to be sitting next to me. That was one.
Howard:
They understood your needs.
Richard:
Right. They understood my needs. And then once I booked the ticket, I get an email from their VP with a video saying, thank you, thank you for booking this. We really appreciate your business. Thank you for coming back. So you know what I did? I went out on LinkedIn and requested a connection with this senior VP at Delta. He responded, connected and then thanked me on LinkedIn. So there is no way this is a canned message. He's thanking me on LinkedIn for being a customer and if there's anything that he can do for me, let him know. And I'm thinking, dang, am I going to fly any other airline? No. Because I was already really careful in my choice. So when we talk about delight, I was incredibly impressed, so much so that I sent to my team, look what they did. And so I completely understand that sense of delight. I just wanted to share that story because that just happened to me. Just very clear.
Howard:
That's a great example. And I hear that all the time about Delta, not that specific story, but Delta is masterful at this, truly masterful.
Richard:
And just so you know, I have flown Delta now for as long as I've been flying, 30 years, something like that. And I remember they were the first airline worldwide to ban smoking on their flights. And I would always be one of those flying as a kid, sitting right behind first class and first class, last three lines, dying on that cigarette smoke. But I still remember the day that they announced a ban worldwide and they have led like that. I have been a loyal customer and will continue to be, but I was shocked at the level of detail that they were focusing on with me. So, perfect example for me. So what you're saying is very much resonating with me. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt but it was very-
Howard:
Oh, no, no, no. I love that. It's a fantastic example. Thank you. And at the top level of that pyramid, which I said was to align with the values. So if the bottom level is they understand me and the middle level equates to, they genuinely care about me, the top level is they are like me. First of all, there's a humanity there because there's a fundamental difference between a brand and a person, a brand is not inherently human, right? In fact, it's whatever the Supreme Court may say-
Richard:
Exactly, whatever the Supreme Court might say-
Howard:
That's a whole other matter. But brands that have a humanity, which sometimes can be because they have a CEO or founder who infused them with that, or sometimes it can be another reason. And then they mean something. They stand for something, they care about something above and beyond. Humans don't just live work. And so when that brand stands for something that they really have authentic caring about, then if that's something that I also share and that's, by the way, both what you said about smoking at the middle level. And also the top level sometimes means that we push away other people. When they made that ban on smoking, there were some people who said, well, I can't fly Delta anymore. And when you are on Nike and you come out in support of Colin Kaepernick and Black Lives Matter, or on the other end of the political spectrum, when you're Chick-fil-A and you come out in support of let's call it traditional values or whatever euphemism you want to use, and I'm just trying to be politically neutral here, what happens is that you repel some people and you massively attract other people.
Howard:
And in both of those cases, both on the right and the left, we see that the attraction was far more powerful than the repellent. And so it was a smart business decision, whether it was done for a business reason or not. But again, it doesn't have to be political. And if you think of the brands that people really love, like an Apple, you see those three things working together in harmony. And so it's easier said than done, but that's the recipe. And very often, and you mentioned this idea of the love dilemma, the dilemma is that to do those things, to be relevant, to be able to meet their needs, to exceed their needs and to stand for something that customers care about in today's continuously changing world, very often you need to transform.
Howard:
And large brands, they ain't so good at that. And so very often they're stuck in the past or they're changing, but they're changing at a pace slower than the pace that the world is changing. And so just imagine you're in a race and you're three yards behind the runner that's front runner, and you're running slower than they are, but what's going to happen? Pretty soon you're four yards behind, you're six yards behind, right? So that's the challenge. That's the dilemma that a lot of brands face today. The good news is there's a solution. And I try in my book as best as I possibly can in a book to lay out a five step process to undergo that transformation, to figure out where you need to go and pilot on how to get there. But anyway, I think that that's the love dilemma that a lot of companies face today. They're just not loved.
Richard:
Yeah. I certainly appreciate you sharing this because as I've read the book and I've looked at that five step process, it certainly is. It's not that it's obvious, but it's so pertinent today because people get lost in the noise, right? They get lost in the activity. They get lost in what do I do next? And particularly when you fall back on the traditional, my clients have come to me because I deal a lot with salespeople, individuals helping them transform the sales process. And the struggle that companies are having is, is that most of these people that I'm working with have been successful in a certain way that they've done it. And now to convince them that, okay, it still might be working for you, but if you do not transform to a digital first mentality, like you just said, you're going to be slowly creeping left behind.
Richard:
Now I know some of them are like, that's good enough because I'm going to retire and I'll be able to be done. But there's a whole lot of these, and I don't want to use age as the issue because it all ranges, but there's those who are being born into this new mentality that they're going to be coming on you so fast that you're not even see them by the time they pass you, if you don't keep up. And so whether it's a brand or an individual, this digital transformation, I love what you've shared. These three levels of love idea. I know I'm going to internalize it here. I just want to say thank you very much for taking a few minutes to share this with our audience and the book. Where can they find the book?
Howard:
Well, hopefully anywhere. The book is called Winning Digital Customers: the Antidote to Irrelevance. Of course you can get it on Amazon, both physical and Kindle and Barnes and Noble and Apple books and all the usual places. If you like, you can also go to the website, winningdigitalcustomers.com, where you can actually download the first chapter for free if you'd like to try before you buy, and you can also sign up for our mailing list and get more information, et cetera, et cetera, learn about our podcasts and other things. So either of those places would be great places to start to get your hands on the book or to check out the information.
Richard:
Winningdigitalcustomers.com.
Howard:
Yes, that's the website, correct.
Richard:
Perfect. Let's make sure everybody is aware of that and they can get there. Howard, thank you again. This has been great. I appreciate the energy and the passion for this topic. Thanks for sharing with us.
Howard:
Thanks so much for having me.
Narrator:
You've been listening to Digital First Leadership, the podcast where you learn to leverage and build your expertise on digital platforms. For more valuable tips on mastering the language of social media, subscribe to our newsletter at blisspointconsult.com. If you'd like to stay in touch, feel free to add Richard on LinkedIn and join the conversation.