Narrator:

Welcome to Digital First Leadership, the podcast that focuses on helping leaders and teams understand how to master the language of social media in today's digital-first world. In this episode, Richard speaks with Jared Karol, a longtime friend and author of upcoming book on confronting racism. Jared is a self-described facilitator of difficult conversations and an inclusive leadership coach who aids corporations in expanding and addressing diversity. Richard and Jared explore topics around diversity and inclusivity and the importance of seeing humanity in every person. Jared provides guidance around difficult conversations and in his book outlines four ways to approach confronting racism.

Richard Bliss:

This is Richard Bliss and welcome to the show. In this episode, I've invited a good friend of mine, Jared Karol, who's joined us because Jared and I have had conversations in the time that we've known each other on a wide range of topics, but one of them really is about diversity and inclusivity, particularly in today's digital-first world and how that impacts it. Jared, I just want to say thank you and welcome to the show

Jared Karol:

Richard, so great to be here. Thanks for having me.

Richard Bliss:

It's always fun. We always have great conversations. Now, you're here because I'm excited for you. You have a book coming out, right?

Jared Karol:

I do. I do have a book. As we were just talking about before we went on air, a penciled-in date of September 29th is where we're aiming for. It's called A White Guy, which is me, A White Guy Confronting Racism, and the subtitle is An Invitation to Reflect and Act.

Richard Bliss:

That's an interesting title and an interesting approach because you're going to be talking about racism. Let's talk a little bit about your background. Also, September 29th is a significant date, right?

Jared Karol:

It is. It's the anniversary of my dad's death. He died on September 29th, 2000. He was a gay man. He was HIV-positive and he died from complications of AIDS. His death, we can explore this a little bit more in our conversation, but his life and death really was the catalyst for me to get into this work almost 21 years ago now.

Richard Bliss:

When you were growing up, were you aware that your father was gay?

Jared Karol:

I wasn't, which is... This'll give my age away, but I was 14 in 1988 and I was visiting my dad in San Francisco. I grew up in San Diego. My parents had divorced when I was two, so my dad moved to LA and then later to San Francisco and I'd come up to the city and like, "Oh, cool, San Francisco," all the things from that a suburban kid would like. We were finishing up a weekend trip and it was the usual, "Hey, we're going to take you down to the airport." He usually did a, "Hey, I love you, Jared. I wish we could spend more time together," the whole thing that any 14-year-old kid doesn't really want to hear.

Jared Karol:

But then it got "worse," because he said, "Tom," the guy who takes us to the airport, because my dad didn't drive, he said, "Tom is my friend." I said, "Well, yeah, that makes sense." He's like, "John," the guy we'd hung out with all weekend and I'd known for maybe six, eight months, he said, "John is my boyfriend. I'm gay." Here I am, this 14-year-old kid, freshman in high school, the late '80s, Reagan still president, with the stigma just a big, big thing, so I cried. I was confused, embarrassed, ashamed. I went back down to San Diego. I didn't tell anyone all the way through high school until finally about midway through college, I told someone.

Richard Bliss:

I assume, based on the book and everything, that your relationship with your father, it didn't end it, it didn't damage, it was just something that you built on, that personal connection that was there?

Jared Karol:

Yeah. Exactly. When I was 20, I was visiting my best friend, Amy, in Colorado. She went to University of Colorado and we were camping one night and I said, "Amy, I got to tell you something," and she's kind of like, "What, dude? You're being weird." I said, "My dad's gay." She said, "Big deal." Well, actually, she said, "Big f-ing deal," but I don't know if we can curse on this podcast.

Richard Bliss:

Right.

Jared Karol:

I'm 20 years old, I'm a college athlete, I'm the party cool guy, not about to have a gay dad in my life, right, so I tell her.

Richard Bliss:

With those macho friends, right.

Jared Karol:

Exactly, yeah. She says, "Big deal." I'm like, "Oh, really?" She, "Yeah, my uncle's gay," and this and that. She was so much more advanced than I was. She gave me permission to see myself, my dad, the LGBTQ community, and just people with more humanity, more inclusivity, more understanding, more curiosity, so that really opened up my mind. Through my 20s is when I started to outgrow that persona that I had boxed myself into. By the time I was starting to be pretty cool with it, that's when my dad passed away, and I said, "Well, you know what? It's time for me to really make that switch." I was living in San Diego at the time. I moved to San Francisco. I started teaching and the rest is history.

Richard Bliss:

That's interesting because there, from the LBGTQ community to now a book on racism, and what it is, we have the book coming out, but that is not your day job, right? You help organizations understand how to deal with or to work with diversity and inclusivity in their organizations.

Jared Karol:

Right, it is and it isn't my day job. I mean, writing, I mean, we'll see what happens when the book comes out, right? Maybe it'll turn into my day job. But yeah, the connection was, as I mentioned, this failure to see each person, no matter who they are, what their background is, what their dimensions of diversity, as human, to see the humanity in every person. Through my dad, he's a white man, but he's a gay white man, I started to see, "Oh, I can drop this baggage, this narrative that I have around myself, around other people, around how we can interact," and that opened it up," so yeah, it started with the LGBT community and I started being more curious and reading and listening. The Internet was new in the late '90s and early 2000s, started doing some research, and like, "Oh," and just grew.

Jared Karol:

Then I made the connection, like, "All right, so the LGBTQ community has its own historical marginalization, oppression, challenges that are unique to that community and they're similar in ways to other communities that have been oppressed, marginalized throughout history, including the black community," and so it became this intense interest in social justice. Then over the years, especially the last, I don't know, four or five years, the emphasis on race, really, it seemed to be more and more the most, I don't know, compelling and urgent issue.

Richard Bliss:

Yeah, [crosstalk 00:07:15]. Yeah.

Jared Karol:

Then fast forward to 2020 and everything, the poop hit the fan, and that's when I said, "You know what? I got something to say here that needs to be said from someone like me." Not only from someone like me, but there are so few white people, and especially white men who are talking about this stuff with any sort of fluency and urgency and authenticity. There's so few compelling voices that I stepped in to fill that void.

Richard Bliss:

Let's talk about the book, then, because you've structured it into four, if I understand, four sections, right, four key ways to approach this conversation. What are those?

Jared Karol:

Yeah. Well, so there are actually 10 chapters and those have their own thing, but there are, to your point, there are four throughlines, if you will. I make it very clear in the first chapter, which I call My Approach to Confronting Racism. In the very first little snippet, the little vignette is social justice, so really understanding that what's going on now in corporations, in society has been going on for centuries and very intentionally so, so really having an understanding that we have to look at what's going on now is not just a one-time thing, but a thing that's been going on for decades and centuries, so social justice, having a knowledge of that, or an awareness and appreciation. The second part is the EQ, right? We talk about D&I or DEI, whatever the acronym we use as programs and trainings and unconscious biases.

Richard Bliss:

Hang on, let's make sure the audience understands. You threw out a whole bunch of acronyms. DEI, EQ. What are we talking about here?

Jared Karol:

All right, thank you for slowing me down. DEI: Diversity, Equity, Inclusion. Sometimes there's a B, like where I'm working right now, it's DI&B, so that's Diversity, Inclusion, & Belonging. You'll see different companies have different acronyms depending on whatever they feel they want to emphasize in their work.

Jared Karol:

So much of that work really is the emotional intelligence, the EQ, right? How do we communicate with each other? How do we show empathy and compassion? How do we believe the lived experiences of people who are different than us, who have different backgrounds, racial, gender, et cetera? Really centering that emotional intelligence, sitting with discomfort, staying in conversations.

Jared Karol:

The third pillar, which is closely related, is mindfulness, right? So often, whether we're stressed or whatever the factors that come into these relationships, we don't pause enough. We don't take the time to really just stop and interrupt our thoughts and our storylines and our narratives about ourselves, about each other, about other people, et cetera.

Jared Karol:

Then the fourth part, the fourth pillar, which again, these are all kind of interwoven, is storytelling. How do we, individually and collectively and organizationally, tell stories and shape narratives that are inclusive, that are true, that are representative of different voices, not just the dominant voice, which so often is a straight white male, in many cases, voice. It's not that that voice isn't welcome or important or included, it's just it's not the only voice. My work is trying to help people understand all these things so that day-to-day, they create cultures where everyone feels welcomed, heard, valued, and like they belong.

Richard Bliss:

I've got to admit, it's been, for me, challenging. I have had numerous phone calls where I have wanted to learn to grow and to find a way to be a stronger part of the conversation. That means calling people up and having uncomfortable for me because I'm talking about things that I don't know where the boundary line is. I don't know where the line is. It even happened today where a term was used, I used it, but I didn't know if I was using it properly, and so I used it and then ask the person on the other side, "Did I use that appropriately? Did we find that ...?"

Richard Bliss:

Because I'm trying to find the boundary and those conversations can't happen through just simply what we see on TV or the press or the media. Those are so driven by other issues, and so I find that having those conversations and being able to talk to the people that are impacted. Some of those are my own family members, some of those are my coworkers, some of those are people I've worked with in the past, leaders, all of that, because this issue, it's bigger than all of us and it's certainly having a huge impact, particularly because in this world, this is one of the things that we address in our conversations is the leadership today with this digital-first environment, finding ways to build culture, to include.

Richard Bliss:

It's a challenge, right, because if you are only seeing each other through a Zoom call, for example, my team has grown significantly during 2020, I've never met half of the people who work for me. I have hired them, I pay them, but I have never seen them. I have never touched their hand and shaken their hand. I've never seen their smile other than through a digital medium, and so this is kind of a unique challenge, I think, that we're all facing. At the same time we're having this discussion about inclusivity and diversity, we're also having a conversation about the tools that are isolating us yet bringing us together, and so it's a very interesting challenge. What a unique time to be living, particularly in this era. I got to believe that these are some of the challenges that you work with with the companies and your clients.

Jared Karol:

Very much so, Richard. I'm glad. I mean, thank you for your vulnerability and for sharing that. What you just shared about yourself and your colleagues, that type of vulnerability and sharing is a lot of what we need more of it. It might not seem like, "Oh, well, that's not DEI and that's not..." No, but what is DEI? It's connection, it's humanity, it's trusting people, it's building relationships. You're right, the challenges are, I mean, I work for a company we both know. I've been there 13 months as a long-term contract and I've never met any one of my colleagues, either. I've been a hundred percent remote and I've got people in India and the UK and France and the East Coast and all across the United States, Japan, a couple of people here, and what I'm trying to do myself and trying to model this and trying to help the people who I coach and the teams who I work with is take the time to, take two minutes out of your call at the beginning of your call to say, "How's your family doing? How are you doing?"

Richard Bliss:

Yep.

Jared Karol:

For example, COVID still in India is not doing, it's not... In the United States, especially in California where we live in the Bay Area, it's getting under control and we're starting to feel a little more comfortable. Well, in India, especially back in April, May, I mean, it was scary, and so-

Richard Bliss:

A member of my team is here in the US but she is from India, her family lives there, and that's one of the conversations we have on a regular basis: "How are they doing?" Because she's isolated from them, and even if she wanted to go see them, there's so many barriers into that, so yeah, it's having that... It's interesting because I bring this up all the time. The irony here is the very tools that have and the events that have isolated us have also brought us into each other's lives. I have met, I'm doing this in air quotes, I have met your children, right, because they happen to walk by on one of our Zoom calls and I talk to it. People have met my cat, or I have been when the... Who was it? Somebody had the plumbers were there, and so we get to hear about the plumbing backup or the air conditioner breaking, or the neighbors' problem, right?

Richard Bliss:

All of these things that normally would never actually come up in a live conversation. We might tell a story, but these aren't stories, these are events happening as we're getting to know each other. We're being invited in each other's lives on a personal level that has actually bound us to each other in a way, I think, that when we go back into the office, or if we do, my team won't, but those that are forced to go back are going to find they are going to be missing this intimate part of their work that for the past 15 months we have all gotten used to. It was weird at the beginning, and now we've all, I mean, in some ways, we embrace it. I got to think the introverts of the world are really dreading the extroverts being put back in charge, right?

Jared Karol:

... Well, I'll say for myself, I'm an extrovert. I think I would classify you, Richard, as an extrovert. I can talk to anyone anytime about anything and I can take over a conversation if people don't put the brakes on me, so yeah, I think you're absolutely right. Talking about digital-first leadership, I think of that, and you probably, well, not probably, I'm sure you have a very distinct definition of what that means for your company and your brand and how you help your clients, I think of it as both internally, like we've been talking about, like with your teams and how you communicate with each other, especially in this time of a pandemic, but also how leaders, and well, anyone really, and organizations are communicating via social media and other media that we have to be talking about this. We don't have to have the answers. I think that's a common challenge/problem, frankly, misconception, like, "Oh, well, I don't have the answer. I don't know what to say about it, so I'm just not going to say anything about it," right, and then-

Richard Bliss:

Yeah, that's what I've had to overcome, right?

Jared Karol:

... [inaudible 00:17:42].

Richard Bliss:

Say something.

Jared Karol:

It's real. It's real. This is where the vulnerability and the EQ, the emotional intelligence comes in. The best thing to say is, "Hey, I don't know what to say, but I know it's important and I'm working about it and I'm thinking about it," and that might not seem like... Again, I'm using air quotes here now, like leadership because you don't have the answers and the solution, but people want to be heard.

Jared Karol:

There's a colleague of mine. Her name is Rachel. We work together quite a bit, not at the company where you know. She said, "The number one thing that anyone, whatever their seniority, whatever their background, whatever their role, that people fear is being irrelevant." She said that maybe a couple of months ago, I've been thinking about it a lot since, that whoever we are, we want to be impactful, we want to be relevant. We want to be helping and doing our job well and being recognized for it, and so if we, at any point, feel irrelevant in a conversation, let's talk about race or about these DEI subjects that are uncomfortable for people to talk about, "I don't want to jump into that conversation because I'm going to say the wrong thing. I'm going to make a mistake. I'm going to put my foot in my mouth. I'm going to..." so either, what do people do? They just avoid it and they're not even in it, or they get defensive and they have to try and, "Tell me what to say. Make sure I say the right thing," and they dominate the conversation and neither way is really that helpful.

Richard Bliss:

Absolutely. Jared, thank you so much. We're out of time, but thank you so much for taking a few minutes out of your day. If people wanted to get in contact with you and follow you as the book gets ready to come out, how would they reach out to you or be in contact with you?

Jared Karol:

Yeah, website is jaredkarol.com, that's J-A-R-E-D K-A-R-O-L dot com. You can find a About Me and my work and a link to the book. Pre-orders should be up, I would say, probably in the next two or three weeks, maybe end of July, early August. Then I'm also very active on LinkedIn, so just if you search for me, I don't think there are any other Jared Karols out there, which is a nice bonus for me, connect with me, follow me on LinkedIn. That's really where I'm pretty active. I don't do a whole lot of other social media just for my sanity.

Richard Bliss:

Yeah. Right, I can understand that. Jared, this has been great. Thank you so much.

Jared Karol:

Thank you, Richard. You're very welcome. Anytime.

Richard Bliss:

You've been listening to Digital First Leadership Podcast. My guest has been Jared Karol. I hope you've enjoyed the conversation today. If you have, be sure to continue to follow us as we come out with new episodes and connect with Jared or myself on LinkedIn. We'd love the opportunity to talk to you. Take care.

Narrator:

You've been listening to Digital First Leadership, the podcast where you learn to leverage and build your expertise on digital platforms. For more valuable tips on mastering the language of social media, subscribe to our newsletter at blisspointconsult.com. If you'd like to stay in touch, feel free to add Richard on LinkedIn and join the conversation.